There have been a lot of comments recently here and on maes-e.com that Plaid is a 'broad church' which caters for both centre-left and centre-right nationalists, despite the fact that Plaid actively portrays itself as a socialist party.
So who amongst the AMs, MPs and MEPs are on the left, and who are on the right?
Jocelyn Davies AM
Leanne Wood AM
Bethan Jenkins AM
Helen Mary Jones AM
Adam Price MP
Jill Evans MEP
Dr Dai Lloyd AM
Rhodri Glyn Thomas AM
Elin Jones AM
Alun Ffred Jones AM
Nerys Evans AM
Hywel Williams MP
Dafydd Elis-Thomas AM
Ieuan Wyn Jones AM
Gareth Jones AM
Elfyn Llwyd MP
Janet Ryder AM
Mohammed Asghar AM
Christopher Franks AM
If the above information is correct, then why does Plaid insist on defining itself as a party of the left, especially in light of the fact that its leader is seen as personally being on the right?
15 opinions:
So am I right in thinking that what we have here is a clique of left-wing feminists who have to an extent hijacked the party with the aid of positive discrimination policies in respect of the selection of candidates?
Plaid moderates need to take back the party from this unrepresentative and fundamentally weak group, rather than running off and forming their own party from scratch. Moderate bloggers can help to defeat this clique by exposing them in the battle of ideas.
I think it's probably a bit more fluid than that.
What's the science behind the list? I'd certainly take issue with a few of them...
What's the science behind the list? I'd certainly take issue with a few of them...
This list is based on Hedd Gwynfor's guessing. So please do take issue with it Ciaran, and anyone else for that matter. All suggestions as to the political orientation of Plaid politicians are welcome.
No science whatsoever I'm afraid, all pure guesses from the top of my head, and many could be wrong.
But I agree totally with you Blamerbell that the concept of being either right or left wing is rather out-dated, and people's views are much more fluid these days.
But I agree totally with you Blamerbell that the concept of being either right or left wing is rather out-dated, and people's views are much more fluid these days.
Ciaran said nothing about it being "out-dated". In very real Welsh terms you either make policies that create dependency on the British State and centralise power in Cardiff/London, or you enable people to become financially self-dependent, allow the economy to flourish, and allow local communities to have a larger degree of autonomy. That is an up-to-date and substantial difference between left and right approaches in Welsh politics. Plaid Cymru is quite clearly the former, not the latter, and it is all too convenient for party members to talk about political terminology being "out-dated" or "more fluid" when they are forced into a corner on the matter of socialism.
Plaid probably needs some women with a business background rather than all these social workers
If you put people into a box, expect them to fight their way out of it.
The point about that list is that it is evidently tempered by your pre-conceived views on Plaid Cymru's politics. There's no way an objective analysis of the various cut off points in the political spectrum would, for example, put Dai Lloyd in the middle and Elfyn Llwyd on the right.
Firstly, this list is based on Hedd's guesswork, not on any of my so-called "preconceived views"
Secondly, it is Plaid politicians themselves who are placing themselves in these boxes, not I
A disappointing answer, all in all
Why do you think that "allowing local communities to have a larger degree of autonomy" is a Conservative idea?!? The Conservatives OPPOSED devolution to Scotland and Wales, and still OPPOSE regional Assemblies in England.
Just because this New Labour Government is a centralist government, it doesn't mean that people on the left agree with their view.
Most socialists would agree with devolving power as much as possible to local government and even community council level therefore empowering communities to make their own decisions. That is certainly my view, and I believe it is also Plaid Cymru's view.
I would also agree that we need to get rid of the state dependency culture, and encourage small indigenous companies to flourish in Wales, again I think this is also Plaid Cymru's views as was shown with their policy of slashing business tax by 50% for small indigenous businesses in the poorest areas of Wales.
Again, I must agree with Blamerbell that putting people into boxes of left v's right is rather naive and outdated in modern Wales. But for a few exceptions, how many Plaid Assembly members have you heard harping on about Socialism during the last few years? It is certainly not a common theme.
PS. The list you refer to was an answer to a question you posted on maes-e off the top of my head. I noted at the time that they were guesses, and are therefore no use whatsoever in this debate. Maybe you could contact Plaid Assembly members and ask them if they consider themselves to be socialist or conservative or purely pragmatic Welsh Nationalists, and if they consider Plaid Cymru to be a Socialist Party.
Again, I must agree with Blamerbell that putting people into boxes of left v's right is rather naive and outdated in modern Wales
So why do Plaid insist on refering to themselves as a Socialist and centre-left party.
But for a few exceptions, how many Plaid Assembly members have you heard harping on about Socialism during the last few years?
Trying to find the few exceptions that haven't done so is the tricky part, not vice versa.
It is certainly not a common theme.
Ah but it is Hedd.
Why do you think that "allowing local communities to have a larger degree of autonomy" is a Conservative idea?!?
It is one of their policies. It is not a policy that Ive heard any other party talk about in recent times.
Most socialists would agree with devolving power as much as possible to local government and even community council level therefore empowering communities to make their own decisions
No Hedd, they don't.
The list you refer to was an answer to a question you posted on maes-e off the top of my head. I noted at the time that they were guesses, and are therefore no use whatsoever in this debate.
And I have also noted here that they are guesses, but so far no-one has offered an alternative list. And to the contrary, they are very useful in this debate.
Maybe you could contact Plaid Assembly members and ask them if they consider themselves to be socialist or conservative or purely pragmatic Welsh Nationalists, and if they consider Plaid Cymru to be a Socialist Party.
Plaid Cymru quite clearly considers itself to be a Socialist party. If they didn't then there would be no debate in the first place. As for asking them, you yourself as a party member are in a far better position to do that than I.
Of those, the one that sets the biggest alarm ringing for me is listing Dafydd El as a conservative. I suppose he's a category unto himself, but failing that then he's at the very least somewhere on the left.
but failing that then he's at the very least somewhere on the left.
Ah but is he? A Lord and a top member of the Church in Wales...doesn't sound too lefty to me.
I would contend the reason why Plaid are painting themselves as socialist is too glean votes off pissed off Labour voters. They know the independence argument is not a strong one, or at least they know they cannot win any more seats on a right-wing nationalist 'independence' ticket.
Its just more political opportunism from Plaid quite frankly.
This is a rather confusing post.
Elfyn Llwyd for example is on record declaring himself as a socialist (in the modern, current sense, rather than in the style of Tommy Sheridan!), which in the terminology of politics in Wales these days puts him as a social democract on the centre-left.
Don't know about Dafydd Elis Thomas nowadays but he certainly used to be known as the 'Miners' MP'. Helen Mary described herself as a 'soft lefty' which puts her in that territory as well. I'd say Plaid's elected representatives equate roughly to centre-left politics- there is room for deviation but it is all in accordance with the party's constitution and defined aims. I certainly don't see any opportunism.
Plaid are not 'painting themselves as socialist' at all, 'decentralist socialism' is the party's ideology and corresponds with the idea of 'social democracy' and centre-left politics nowadays. So my point is that Welsh nationalism has never been a right-wing force economically or socially, and Plaid is a fairly comfortably ranged party on the political spectrum.
Regards,
Luke Nicholas
Wasn't Elfyn Llwyd an Adfer supporter in Aber? Anybody got evidence either way? Now, it seems, he seems to be promoting Cymru Fach.
Dennis Balsom once usefully analysed Wales as three regions: Y Fro Gymraeg, Welsh Wales and British Wales. Plaid now represents all three but Whinge + Co want Plaid to retreat to Y Fro. The unionists must love it! Which is why they want The Coalition.
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